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Talk:Rosatrice (alternate theory)
HOLY SHIT!! HERE WE GO AGAIN! THE SAYOTRICE FANBOYS WILL COME AND GET YOU!!! This is a warning message. Last time there was a Rosatrice page that summarized KnownNoMore's videos and it was deleted by the admin due to the manga's release of EP7, y'know the chapter when Willard makes his solutions (ironically most of the "how dunnit" was figured out by KnownNoMore, esp. in EP4). It's best if you post this topic at animesuki or at Heart of the Golden Witch tumblr. Feel free to argue with them. But before you do read the manga first, since they will use it against your ass HARD and Ryukishi07's latest interview. They will even claim that they have figured out Sayotrice as early as EP2!!! And the fact that there was a part in EP1 where George describes Shannon as being different to Sayo as a "hint". Even though KnownNoMore's videos has little to no flaws, it is a bit outdated and needs to be updated in correspondence to the manga. This is a wiki and it only records facts and it's best if you view the wiki as a database rather than a place to argue or attract hate. Yours truly, a fellow Rosatrice believer. P.S. Apparently they don't use the term personalities anymore, they use the word "roles". So yeah, apparently Yasu ain't schizo no more and is perfectly aware of what he is doing and is in denial of himself. Answer to fellow Rosatrice thinker and all other people claiming shkanon is truth I believe him, that it is a game. I believe, that he is still deceiving us. I won't believe in his reply until he says in red. Sayo Yasuda can not exist. It is impossible. Impossible personality. Impossible "roles". Impossible tits. Impossible interpretation. Everything about Sayo is impossible. Umineko is mindfuck. Though I like it. Answer to you all Ryukishi confirmed... Manga was official answer. But he didn't say, that it was the right one. Just as we predicted. Oh, irony, shkanon believers yet again read everything wrong. Not Again You believe him but you think he is still decieving you? Isn't that a contradiction? It is like Battler saying he likes Beato but Beato says that she does not believe him as there is no proof. And that she does not believe him as because she loves him. No matter what he says you will say that he is decieving you unless he announce that Rosatrice is the correct answer. No matter what people who believe in Rosatrice say, the people who believe in Shkanontrice will think Rosatrice is a lie No matter what people who believe in Shkanontrice say, the people who believe in Rosatrice will think it is a lie. Isn't this just forever going to be a stalemate? Might as create a separate wikia or something. Meismesss (talk) 15:35, April 26, 2015 (UTC) Enough, already! Guys, calm down. It doesn't matter who's right whether if it's Yasu, Shannon, Battler, Eva, Rosa or whoever; just as long as you can explain why you think X is the culprit without sounding like bratty children I think we're pretty much good as far as the video games are concerned. I think Yasu said it best: Also can someone please put something on this page to at least explain what the Rosatrice theory is to newcomers? Because there is literally nothing here except for this talk where almost everyone is turning into Erika Furudo. Kriemhild von Schwarzwald (talk) 17:23, April 27, 2015 (UTC) I'm back... Holy fucking shit, this wikia has just gotten worse. By the way Kriemhild, nicely said. Also checking the page's history, there seems to have been content before it was deleted by some anonymous hater. But even that content is half-assed as fuck and won't even settle the Rosatrice vs Sayotrice debate. Where's the admin, this wikia needs MAJOR CLEANUP. Actually I just got an idea. Because believe it or not 07th Expansion is coming to America...Yes, really! So if you guys are in Chicago and can afford to go to Anime Central, you can just ask him in person. I will be super jealous ,but at least we'll be one step further into closing this debate. --Kriemhild von Schwarzwald (talk) 10:26, April 29, 2015 (UTC) Hello, I was at Anime Central over this past weekend and was lucky enough to get an interview with Ryukishi07 himself, which you can watch here. I was actually able to ask him a number of things about the more mysterious l aspects of Umineko, including things like if he intended Sayo Yasuda to have any transgender elements to her character, but more importantly for this page, I asked about Rosetrice as well. He responded that he knew of the theory, as RO7 often reads his fans comments about his works online, and went on to say that he'd sometimes referenced to these theories to throw people off. Worldendwitch (talk) 14:25, May 20, 2015 (UTC)Worldendwitch Thrice slain I hope that people don't honestly still cling to this BS. Ryukishi07 has effectively denied you three times. The first was the manga itself. The second, his statement in the January APGNation interview where he confirmed that the manga is the official truth. The third, his outright calling Rosatrice a false theory at Anime Central. To whoever it was who said that "Ryukishi07 never said that the manga was the correct answer," that's just you being a pedantic asshole and you know it. Don't even PRETEND Ryukishi07 meant anything other than that the manga is the Truth with a capital T. I hope you people don't dare defile TRianThology with your vitriolic bullshit. People as disrespectful and insulting as you don't belong here. YOU are the goats from EP8, and all you are capable of, as you yourselves have seen, is mindless, HEARTLESS shit slinging. And if you honestly believe that the heart has no place in Umineko, or that "without love, it cannot be seen" is BS, then YOU HAVE LEARNED ABSOLUTELY NOTHING. Seieireppa (talk) 05:08, May 27, 2015 (UTC) I'm back this time for a little suggestion for the page. Mainly how we can use an image (I already uploaded it on the Wiki ,but it won't show up) for the page as opposed to part one of the KNM's (in)famous video....that the link at the bottom points to the entire playlist making that completely pointless. Kriemhild von Schwarzwald (talk) 14:42, June 1, 2015 (UTC) PS I wrote to Ryukishi a while ago about how everyone's been acting this thread (even suggesting there's a Black Rosa created by this theory). But I haven't sent it yet since my mom has a colleague that's a Japanese teacher that's translating the letter to me and I haven't heard about the progress since my mom emailed him the English version. I'm not trying to use it to say that To Seieireppa, you do know that Ryukishi did say in the afterword in the manga you need to have an eye without love and an eye with love to find the truth in EPs 1-4 (that is if you even have a legitimate copy of the manga version, which I doubt). You talk as if ALL Rosatricers are assholes or stupid when in fact you are the one being an asshole and the Sayotricers are just as bad if not worse, since they can be obnoxious, snobbish fanboys that flips their shit when someone just mentions Rosatrice. And really? Pulling the cards "without love it truth can't be seen" or "All Rosatricers are Goats"? How original. Firstly,' EVERYONE IN THE UMINEKO FANDOM ARE GOATS. ' Secondly, majority of Sayotricers never even gave it a shot with solving Umineko with just the 4 games, so you tell me, who is the bigger asshole that ignores the heart? The guy who forces "facts" down other people's throats by not even challenging the story, or the guy who challenges the story, while also keeping the heart in mind (which is what Battler and KNM did). Thirdly, I know some Rosatricers IRL and online that came to this conclusion WAY before KNM released his videos. And you know what? It fits with Ryukishi's afterword statements in the manga and it DOESN'T IGNORE THE HEART. Rosatrice does work when you THINK which is something that majority of this fandom didn't bother doing. So does that mean they are idiots or assholes? HECK THE FUCK NO!!! After Ryukishi's interviews, none of my friends bothered arguing with fanboys since it is just a FUCKING WORK OF FICTION and they moved on with their lives. So don't go acting all high and mighty when you are just a fanboy who puts down LEGITIMATE UMINEKO FANS that came to a Rosatrice conclusion. It is fanboys like you that ruined this fandom, which is just sad. Also, did you even listen carefully to what Ryukishi07 said exactly in the Anime Central interview? All he said was, "I have heard of the theory Rosatrice. I have placed red herrings in the story to throw off readers". He was really clever with that one. There is still room for argument and Confession of the Golden Witch could have also shown a fantasy as well, since it is just an expanded EP7. And remember, Umineko is a game, as Ryukishi has stated many times and emphasised in the manga more than the original. P.S. If you think I am a Rosatricer, you are DEAD FUCKING WRONG. I am just an Umineko fan that accepts it for what it is, despite its flaws and prefers Sayotrice over Rosatrice any day, simply because it has a nice touch to it. To Kriemhild von Schwarzwald, finally someone had the BALLS to send Ryukishi07 a fanmail about this issue. Because you know what? It is just fucking ridiculous. This whole Sayotrice vs Rosatrice debate is just pathetic and pointless and can only be settled if Ryukishi07 just gives a RED STATEMENT. A statement where he admits he screwed up his story or that he is lying. At this point that is just the only way this stupid flame war would end. Give us more updates from now on about the fanmail, alright? About the letter First of all, to be fair the letter was less about "who is the real culprit?" and more about "hi, sorry I couldn't make it to Anime Central even though you're my idol...not helped by this stupid flame war I witnessed online". And even then I doubt, we'll get an answer that easily since he wants the viewer to decide for themself. Secondly, either it's taking Ryukishi a long time to respond or I sent my email to the wrong address. Can anyone tell me if this is the right one? bbs@07th-expansion.net It could be no seeing how the question was about advertising banners and other inquiries.Thanks. Although you know what's eeriey? The day after I saw the response from the guy who called Seieireppa out on his hypocrisy the translation finally came back to me. Even though I had to make a couple of changes thanks to the fact that Umineko isn't as popular as something like Dragon Ball Z and he seemed to ignored the links to this very wiki I sent him, but it's no big deal and I don't want to sound ungrateful. Although that reminds me, I also gotta work on that thank you note since he also gets paid for this sort of thing. Kriemhild von Schwarzwald (talk) 14:31, June 16, 2015 (UTC) Also for some reason it used to say rival instead of idol Kriemhild von Schwarzwald (talk) 13:52, July 17, 2015 (UTC) Who's Rosatrice? ---- How does Rosatrice explain games 2 and 3? And why would George even help Rosa? 00:45, June 23, 2017 (UTC) Why Rosatice makes more sense than Shkanon 1. Will or Rather Will is in Umineko I understand if only the Knox rules apply but Will someone who follows Van Dyne is explaining everything the Van Dyne rules must be a part of Umineko and only following a select few makes no sense because Will Exists so it must use all of the rules so that Will can be in Umineko without problems 2. Shannon and Kanon were shown together in the 5th arc 3. in the 6th game why did Beatrice lose if Beatrice is Shannon and Shannon won so yeah 4. Nanjo being an Accomplice in Our Confession because he thought it was a prank and he's a doctor and has a full view of the bodies. Rosa saying "I will give you money to save your grandchild if you help me kill everyone" makes more sense than Shannon saying "I will give you 1 billion yen for a prank" 5. Yasu name is never even said once in games 1-4 once 6. most of the people on Rokkenjima must have a Brain Disease and missing parts of their brain Jessica who is very close to Shannon and in love with Kanon never noticed, Natsuhi and Krauss are their employers never notice as well, the list goes on. Dchhha (talk) 20:22, July 3, 2017 (UTC) 'Countering the points made above (by Dchhha) and making a few more' 1. This entire point is moot in my view. Will's very existence on the game board does not effectively ensure that ALL twenty of the Van Dyne rules are followed in Beatrice's mystery. Only two are stated in red: #1 (no crime without a corpse) and #11 (a servant cannot be the culprit). #11 is stated in reference to a wholly different gameboard all together, therefore the red truth of that game can be different to the red truth of Beato's game. You also have forgotten that not all of Knox's decalogue is included in Umineko: Knox's 5th: "No Chinaman must feature in the story". This rule is omitted and not included, proving that Dlanor A. Knox's existence in the story does not guarantee that Knox's decalogue is wholly abided. Additionally, in the Rosatrice explanation of Ep 1 they argue that a 'fake death' drug is used. I'd argue that this is a violation of Knox's 4th. 2. Shannon and Kannon are shown together at MANY points throughout the story, the difference is that they are NEVER acknowledged simultaneously by the only objective viewpoint in EP 5 - Erika Furudo. Yes she is in the same room as them, but never at any point did she single them out and acknowledge them. Battler did implicitly, however it was only stated in red that the number of people in this room is equal to the number of people on the island. There was no objective acknowledgement that shannon and kanon existed in that room by Erika. The same can be said for EPs 1-4 for Battler as he was the objective viewpoint then. 3. I'm assuming you are puprosefully misrepresenting the shkannontrice theory to make this point. The whole point is Shannon = Kanon = Beatrice. The whole point of this duel is that only ONE of these three people can have their love fulfilled. This whole duel scene took place in the meta world and according to the Shkannontrice theory is Sayo reconciling her conflicting love for Battler, George, and Jessica. Zepar and Furfur represent her mental battle to pick ONE so she can cease loving all three at once. Beatrice loses straight up as Battler was never able to recognise her, or find the truth of who she was, he cannot remember their relationship and as such Sayo has realised she must abondon her love for him. 4. In the confession chapter of the manga Sayo specifies that the adults can be bribed INITIALLY with the premise that it will be a fake murder game, and if they have reservations she will either kill them, or raise the bribe. This can be said for Nanjo. 5. Yasu is not the culprits real name, their true name is Sayo Yasuda. Shannon confesses that her true name is Sayo to George in EP 1. Later, in EP 7 it is confirmed that the servants called Sayo 'Yasu' as a rude nickname, in japanese culture it is not uncommon for acquaintances to refer to eachother using their last name, and as such, shortening Yasuda to 'Yasu' is a rude way for the servants on Rokkenjima to refer to Sayo. Sayo was presented to the viewer before any murders occurred on the island in EP 1. The only reason the fandom refers to the culprit as Yasu is due to EP 7 and the way that story was told. 6. Sayo has Genji and Kumasawa covering for her. Her employees would not even care to notice. As for Jessica, I sincerely doubt she would have noticed, there may have been a few close calls, but for the most part, it is stated that shannon and kanon were rostered separately by Genji, therefore they were never 'on rokkenjima' simultaneously. 'Now for my challenge to the Rosatricers' I am genuinely curious, for those of you who buy into Knownnomore's theory of Rosatrice. How does it explan the resolution of the logic error in EP 6? And how does it account for the red truth that including Erika, there are only 17 humans on Rokkenjima? By looking at the original Japanese version, the apparent inconsistencies between the numbering of people on the island are resolved. Different characters are used when numbering the number of people (personalities/roles/whatever you want to call them), than when stating the number of bodies. So in my view, it is safe to say that for Eps 1-4 there exist only 16 unique bodies. However, assuming your theory hinges on the fact that this is false, how would you still manage to solve Beato's riddle that effectively kills Erika? Genuinely curious. Gretele (talk) 11:48, July 8, 2017 (UTC) Challenge to the Shkanon Cult you know what ruins your creditbillity as a debater not doing research on the oppisite side like Gretele over here who's pretty much is one of the many many many people who haven't seen the videos about Rosatrice and challenge it Actually watch the videos please 4 parts and an extended part 1 and because of many many Shkanon believers I am calling people who believe in Shkanon a cult didn't want to but here I am Dchhha (talk) 20:49, September 2, 2017 (UTC) finally summarized the question arc rosatrice answers, thoughts Mechanically, I think it's plausible, but it's too vague to be the intended answer. If R07 had written Umineko with the intent that Rosatrice was the true, correct, answer, he would have made it so that there was one solution to it that could be found by looking through the supposed red herring of Sayo. This includes writing it so that that one solution is obvious: there is a clear who killed who. He would have written it with the intent of providing a single clear answer, and through small hints, eliminating alternate possibilities. Rosatrice doesn't have that, but Sayotrice does. You clearly know which people Sayo killed, and which ones she didn't, and most importantly, there is only one possible answer for every game for the howdunnit. Rosatrice is vague several times on the how, as there are multiple possible solutions (for example, game 3)-it would be easy for Beatrice to say in red for 3 that nobody died via poison, thus narrowing the solution to a single one: Shannon faked her death, Rosa shot her later. It also relies far too heavily on 'fake death drugs'. Nobody mentioned them existing in the game at any point in time, and posessing them doesn't really have a point if you have Nanjo as an accomplice in the first place. At no point in the theories proposed is it beneficial or useful to the mastermind to have them; Nanjo checks corpses, Rosa oversees them looking around Natsuhi's room in 2, etc. It's only useful as a method for poisoning Shannon. Gootarts (talk) 17:08, September 24, 2018 (UTC)